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William Wallace
02-28-2008, 12:12 PM
Scenario:

You are 15 feet up in a tree. The tree is on a wooded ridge line with approximately 35 degrees of down slope. Directly below you is a heavily used deer trail running parallel to the ridge line, thus the set up. You've lasered a tree trunk directly out perpendicular from the base of your stand tree and it is 42 yards below you and about 8 yards beyond the deer trail.

When Hog Buck ambles down the trail, how far is your "shot", when he is at his closest to you?

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh226/BillWallace70/untitled.jpg

ICDUCKS
02-28-2008, 12:16 PM
The deer is at 34 yards right now but if the trail is directly below you then when you take your shot at his closest point he will be directly below you also.So im guessing he will be 15 feet below you. :lol:

zenrider
02-28-2008, 12:58 PM
41.9 yards for the flight path. Aim point of 34 yds.

Grizzly Gary
02-29-2008, 07:21 PM
Great post William Wallace!

Let it go till more chime in before you give the answer.

1st 3 correct answers get a prize! I promise to make it a good one.

bigfish
02-29-2008, 08:14 PM
would it be 42 yards

treestandtimmy
02-29-2008, 08:25 PM
I would guess the shot would be close to 42 yards. Downhill shots are always a longer distance.
Your trying to screw me up by measuring the 42 yards from the base of the tree your in. But then you have to go 15 feet in the air making your shot twice as steep.15/2=7.5+34= 41.5
41.5 yards is my guess.




I'm stumped..no pun intended.LOL

Outdoorsman
02-29-2008, 08:57 PM
I thought 41 to 40 yards. I would say 41.

turkeylad
02-29-2008, 09:26 PM
42.7 yards

carl milks
03-01-2008, 08:06 PM
I've never been a wizard at math, but I figure it to be 40 to 41.5 yrds. (?)

William Wallace
03-01-2008, 09:51 PM
To further moggle your bind, lets look at the scenario posed by ICDUCKS' sense of humor.

Say you ARE 15 feet up in a tree, and the deer IS directly below you, say 1 yard from the base of the tree.

With regards to pin choice vs. shot placement vs. flight path, how far would that shot be?

15 feet?

Or not...?

William Wallace
03-01-2008, 10:18 PM
And, if you will humor me for a second, and carry this to an extreme. Say you are a sheep hunter.

As long as we are dreaming let's put our selves in Alaska on the side of a mountain, a steep and slippery shale slope, with a full curl +P Dall Ram in the crosshairs below you. Everything is riding on you making this shot of a lifetime. You just waited 12 years for the tag and spent most of what you've saved so far for your kids' college fund on this hunt. It's the last day, there's only about two hours of season left, you need to plant this critter where he stands with a dead on hit else he jumps off the side possibly lost and wounded. And, because of the college fund, you are probably facing a divorce when you get home.

You crawl out to a ledge overlooking the Ram and hit him with a laser. Your rifle is zeroed at 250 yards. The laser tells you a distance of 537 yards, well within the realm of ballistic function of the rifle you are using. You though, are shooting almost nearly straight down, with about an 80 degree deviance from horizontal, it's just about enough to give you a nose bleed.

What's your shot?

ICDUCKS
03-01-2008, 10:18 PM
well actually for a straight down shot it would be 0-1 yards and for that I would be shooting my 50 yard pin.

treerat
03-02-2008, 09:35 AM
34 yds

bigfish
03-02-2008, 11:27 AM
it may be close to 40 yards

ICDUCKS
03-02-2008, 10:04 PM
For the ram mentally Im horizontally cutting his body in 1/3 and aiming at the bottom third just behind the shoulder and expecting to take him high in the lungs.

coalbedbuck
03-02-2008, 10:43 PM
Thats a 34 yard shot.

treestandtimmy
03-03-2008, 12:12 PM
One question at a time WW. let's hear the answer to the first before the second and third

Striker
03-03-2008, 02:46 PM
first scenario is 34 yards? what if you were shooting up the slope

William Wallace
03-03-2008, 07:01 PM
Scenario:

You are 15 feet up in a tree. The tree is on a wooded ridge line with approximately 35 degrees of down slope. Directly below you is a heavily used deer trail running parallel to the ridge line, thus the set up. You've lasered a tree trunk directly out perpendicular from the base of your stand tree and it is 42 yards below you and about 8 yards beyond the deer trail.

When Hog Buck ambles down the trail, how far is your "shot", when he is at his closest to you?

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh226/BillWallace70/untitled2.jpg

Forgive my inability to scale a drawing with such inacuracies as the out-of-scale bow hanging way too-far-forward and too largely so. The edit in red shows the true distance of the shot taken.

Allow me to explain.

If you know the laws of physics and the effects of gravity on a flying object then you will understand why the shot distance is actually shorter than the ground distance. For THIS shot I would use whatever pin setting that gave me a 35 yard shot. On my bow I would hold between my 30 and my 40 yard pin. Let's not enter into the discussion the "trajectory" of the arrow for any given distance because that has already been determined by setting pins on level ground prior to hunting. It'll all make sense here in a minute.

Gravity is the main force acting on an arrow upon launch. To a lesser degree air resistance slows an arrow, and depending on the angle, wind deflection will slow it as well, but only to a slighter degree compared to Gravity. The pins we set are our way to compensate for the effects of Gravity on our arrow, as is any other sighting system for a flying projectile. For all intents and purposes needed by us laymen, Gravity is why an arrow, bullet or baseball will eventually slow and fall to the earth. The arcing trajectory we see depicted in ballsitics tables illustrates our use of a sight system to "defeat" gravity for an instant or two to get more effective range.

Gravity though, only acts upon a flying object in a level plane of distance, despite any angle up or down involved. In other words it matters not if you are 15 feet up in a tree and the target is only 1 yard "away" from you down below, the distance that gravity CAN act upon the arrow is only 1 yard, not 15 feet. Straight out from you on a level plane and then perpendicular down to the target is 1 yard, that is the distance of that shot.

The picture in which I drew the cute little deer, the horizonally level plane to the target is 42 yards minus roughly 8 yards, which is 34 yards. This law of physics is very decieving to some archers and thus the various ways invented to overcome the problem. Some choose to sight in from a tree stand, but then experience problems on level ground. Some buy bow sights and/or range finders with an angle compensator built in, some just simply guess and quite often shoot high over an animal, others spend a fortune on gear to eek out every foot-per-second they can to "flatten" out their shot.

The Rule applies to an Uphill shot as well. The distance of the shot is always, to our perception, longer than the actual distance Gravity is allowed to affect the arrow or bullet and has caused many hunters to aim too far over the animal and shoot high while shooting uphill.

Hug an Oak Tree with a big Fox Squirrel 40 feet above you. Not a real safe thing to do but If you aim a .22 rifle nearly straight up to take a shot at him, the shot is NOT 40 feet long, according to the laws of gravitational pull. The distance is mathmatically computed by forming a right triangle with the hypotenus, which is your line of sight, leg A which is a line vertically plum, and line B horizontally level to the squirrel. Line B is the distance of the shot, which may be only 3 or 4 feet depending on how far out in the limbs the squirrel is.

When in my tree stand, which is almost always never in the same place twice, I range various landmarks around me that are in sensable bow range, I do this by lasering straight out level to tree trunks, tree tops, hillsides, ect., and memorize the distance. When a deer passes one of those landmarks I simply put the "longer" looking distance out of my mind and trust what my laser told me. I stick to whole increments of 5 yards rounding up or down as my bow is fast enough to compensate for a yard or two off.

Hope this helps.

bigfish
03-04-2008, 03:02 PM
when are we going to find out the answer

coalbedbuck
03-04-2008, 03:27 PM
its in red on WW's last post

William Wallace
03-04-2008, 07:32 PM
when are we going to find out the answer

It would help to read my last post, for the answer and explanation. Several posters answered correctly. Cudos to them.

treestandtimmy
03-05-2008, 09:30 AM
In your scenario the "shot" would be 34 yards, but the actual distance the arrow is traveling is closer to 42 yards according to geometry.
it's just like golf... 50 yard downhill shot that is 150 yards is played as if it was 120 yards. but the ball is still traveling 150 yards...right??
I was wrong with my answer, but right with the distance the arrow would travel.

bigfish
03-05-2008, 02:55 PM
sorry i did not see that i should have read the back posts better.

William Wallace
03-05-2008, 04:52 PM
In your scenario the "shot" would be 34 yards, but the actual distance the arrow is traveling is closer to 42 yards according to geometry.
it's just like golf... 50 yard downhill shot that is 150 yards is played as if it was 120 yards. but the ball is still traveling 150 yards...right??
I was wrong with my answer, but right with the distance the arrow would travel.

What counts is a hit or a miss. In cases like this, allowing yourself to think the "longer" distance will cause you to miss high, either up hill or down hill. Knowing what the distance is that gravity CAN affect your arrow or bullet IS the battle.

You can sight your bow in from an elevated postion, and that's ok if all you do is shoot from there, ground work though, would be inacurate. There are many scenarios, even when only hunting from a tree stand, as my "drawing" depicts. Rarely a hunting situation is as you practice for it. It's easier for me to simply sight in at ground level and then compensate for any angle involved depending on how severe.

All this comes into play at it's most dramatic with a straight down shot, which is common to me and I'm sure others. 20 or 30 feet up a tree looks like quite a distance and the mind wants to see things compensated for, when in reality it is a VERY short shot with little to no need to compensate for trajectory (or gravity). Have heard of many archers missing those kinds of shots and wondering why. With gravity as the main player in a hit or miss, it's best to know how to defeat it properly for the time it takes the arrow to hit the mark. Shooting up hill or down hill at severe angles is all together a different ball game.

treestandtimmy
03-06-2008, 09:11 AM
Next time name your topic "know your physics" not math :lol: math=geometry
science+math=physics

It really is a good thing for all archers to know their "true" distance. I've had the straight down shots, but fortunatly my stands are usually no more then 15ft or so.
Good topic dude

by the way, I think more drawings are necessary to convince Grizzly, he likes pictures :lol: :lol:

12GUAGETAGE
03-06-2008, 09:29 AM
WHERES MY DADS $1,000,000 Cabelas gift Cert for having the right answer? :lol:

Grizzly Gary
03-06-2008, 10:10 AM
Tell 3 BucksDucks his check is in the mail! :twisted: :lol:

He also wins one of my dirty socks! The rest of you will get something. I am behind again on this stuff. Gotta pick up an applebys certificate to. To much to do and not enough time!

Great post William Wallace! I stunk at math. Plus the fact I manage to miss the deer no matter the distance. :oops:

turkeylad
03-28-2008, 03:43 PM
I wasn't even close and I'm in algebra 1 right now :oops: , whats the answer to the other two

treerat
03-28-2008, 04:26 PM
The rest of you will get something.
hope its not the matching dirty sock . or a mis matched fishing rod . to expensive to run to warren to get the right one :lol:

ratherbhuntin
03-28-2008, 10:13 PM
Gotta pick up an applebys certificate to. To much to do and not enough time!


Ahh yes applebees i faintly remember a message on the answering machine a month ago about my address cuzz gary was gonna get the certificate that week. It's ok gary i understand you are getting old, loony, and forgetful :D

ICDUCKS
04-02-2008, 09:27 PM
I think Gary had a half a bottle of Grey Goose in him when he told us the first 3 correct answers would get a prize. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

treerat
04-03-2008, 08:27 AM
what you didnt get your new range finder? very generous for Gary to buy them for us . (hint for Gary ) I think Gary is spending all his money on his new fishing rig .

ICDUCKS
04-19-2008, 09:58 PM
Yeah HINT HINT HINT!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

treestandtimmy
04-23-2008, 02:39 PM
I think Grizzly is ignoring you guys :wink:

zenrider
04-23-2008, 03:37 PM
ignoring us!!??? what??

call me a name or something then he will have to at least lock the thread... :lol: